HybridCenter Q&A: The Green Line Vue—what the heck is it?

Q: I am a little confused after learning about hybrids on this site. My Saturn Greenline does all of the  below which seems on one hand is called a hybrid, granted there are more complex systems out there, however I couldn’t afford any of them. I do get a better fuel mileage and all.   I just don’t understand how it is not a hybrid?  To me it is about saving fuel money, and the earth. I feel like I am getting two separate messages here.

1.Idle-off capability
2.Regenerative braking capacity
3.Power Assist and Engine downsizing (at this step you reach a "mild" hybrid)

A: We’ve gotten a trickle of continued questions about the Green Line Vue.  As you might remember in this blog, we concluded that while the Green Line Vue does take advantage of some sound conventional technological improvements over the normal Vue, the 36 volt battery system doesn’t have the kind of electric storage provide a significant power assist, or to store large enough quantities of recaptured braking energy to be seen as anything other than a hollow hybrid, given that's the way GM is marketing it.  We will have a more official analysis soon, so keep your eyes peeled for something we are calling the “Hybrid Scorecard.”

If you want other opinions on this, there are two great new articles about this vehicle.  First, a review from the Cleveland Plain Dealer concludes, “But look closely and the 2007 Vue Green Line falls short of being a blockbuster either environmentally or economically.”  They don’t follow our hybrid criterion, but, the LA Times’ review of the vehicle “Green Lite” humorously notes that:

It uses, instead, a big honking belt-driven starter motor that — with a flip of polarity when the vehicle is coasting and braking — acts as a generator, feeding electrons to a relatively dinky 10kW battery under the cargo floor. Otherwise, the Green Line powertrain is as conventional as Victorian sex [emphasis added because it’s a funny line]. The internal-combustion smudge-pot is a 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine (a bump from the standard Vue's 2.2 liters of displacement)….

The UCS view of the Green Line Vue is pretty succinctly stated by our research Director David Friedman, as quoted in the Plain Dealer article:

Friedman says the Green Line makes it look like GM developed "a bad hybrid" when the automaker could be marketing the Green Line as "a great, conventional car…Honestly, I would stand up and cheer if GM announced they would just put this in all their vehicles. They would be showing what we have been saying -- that the biggest bang for the buck in the next 10 years is with better conventional technology," Friedman said.  “True hybrids are an essential addition to the automotive population, but a lot more fuel could also be saved if more vehicles had systems such as the one GM put in the Green Line,” he said.

Posted by: ScottN

Comments

[altfuels]

Recall the post on this blog back in April, at

http://hybridblog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/04/bmw_goes_leaner.html

in which you noted that BMW will be putting idle-off and regenerative braking technology in some of its European models for 2007, but not bothering to call them hybrids. Part of the reason for not doing so, I'm sure, has to do with the fact that "diesel" has more cachet than "hybrid" over there (the opposite, of course, is true here and in Japan); but I'm willing to salute them for honesty anyway.

GM, however, is desperate for some environmental cover (say, to reply to the bad publicity surrounding their crushing of the EV1 electric cars, or to distract attention from their abandonment of natural-gas vehicles, or maybe to counter their Hummerrhoid image, or...), and is trumpeting the fact that the Vue Green Line has the best highway fuel economy of any SUV. Yeah, it tops the Ford Escape hybrid--by all of one MPG; however, around town the full-hybrid Escape spanks the hollow-hybrid Vue. But it gives GM something to talk about today, besides promises of hydrogen vehicles in the nebulous future.

I await with _great_ interest some independent test reports on GM's "dual-mode" hybrid for large trucks and SUVs, developed by the same powertrain division that builds hybrid systems for buses and other heavy-duty vehicles. It sounds promising, but I kind of doubt it's going to meet with market success--if people are interested (for environmental, patriotic, or economic reasons) in fuel economy, they're probably not considering a Tahoe anyway. Same story as "muscle hybrids"--people who are looking at hybrids seem to be (unsurprisingly) focused on fuel efficiency, and they'll pass up the opportunity to get more performance with a little better fuel economy when they can get similar performance with _much_ better fuel economy by getting a Prius, Camry, or Civic hybrid, or an Escape if they really need a bigger vehicle. Conversely, people shopping for a performance car generally don't give a darn about fuel economy, Tesla customers aside. But still, the descriptions I've read of the "dual-mode" system, and its heritage, do sound promising. Stay tuned.

[Bo]

If you like your Vue Green Line hybrid for what it does do, that's all that matters. By the way, its engine wasn't downsized; it was actually upsized by .2 L, which helps give it better 0-60 acceleration than the conventional 4-cylinder Vue. The only thing it doesn't do is motor in 25 mph zones on electric power only, and for this reason, it's more affordable than other hybrid SUVs.

[ScottN]

Bo, you're right about engine downsizing, we didn't mention that because if it were a real hybrid, the Green Line Vue would qualify more as a "muscle hybrid" because they didn't even take advantage of what technology they had to downsize the gas engine.

As for your other argument, it's apples and oranges, or personal vs. fleet in this case. From a vehicle-to-vehicle standpoint, true hybrids do far more for the environment and for oil savings than does the Green Line Vue. In order for the GL Vue's use of advanced conventional technologies to be of genuine environmental benefit, it needs to be quantity over "quality" -- i.e. many more of these models need to be produced and bought to produce the benefit. That's why David said he would have applauded this use if it were integrated throughout the Vue fleet, but to produce a very limited number of them and hide behind a "hybrid" label is a move that does not benefit true consumer choice, or the environment. That is a key distinction in our minds.

[Wrightsfd]

No matter how you define this vehicle it simply confirms the problems with the American manufacturers. Ford, GM, and DC make vehicles that are merely imitations of what the rest of the world makes. They are unable or unwilling to make anything but large heavy gas sucking trucks well. They have had 40 years to catch the Japanese in the competent manufacture of small cars but continually fail with each new model. The Koreans have caught up in less than 20 years, and now surpassed the American makes in relaibility and quality. Yet the big three go crying to Bush because they need help, if only they would make a decent car that America would want to buy they would not need the help. Ford introduces revolutionary models that sell well but then lets them die by not updating for years and letting them become fat and cheap (Taurus, Contour, Focus) and GM still can't build anything under 4000lbs. with any style or substance. DC is so focused on the Hemi that it has no idea what a small car could be like.
My opinion is to vote with your wallet. Don't buy the Green Line until it is a "real" hybrid, buy a Highlander or Escape hyprid if you have to have an SUV, or buy any one of the other hybrids on the market and send the message to GM that doing everything half-assed is what got them in trouble in the first place.

[Bill Palmer]

Hybrids available today are still powered by gasoline only. Plug-in hybrids can be powered by power company electricity for all local trips, not using any gasoline until the trip is long enough to run out of battery charge. Over 100 miles per gallon is easily achievable thereby significantly reducing both the use of foreign oil and air pollution. Bill Palmer

[Tim]

While full-hybrids still need gas, it is a necessary first step. Until the Prius, there was no "plug-in" concept to speak of. So we should not jump on a new thing and then bash the technology that started it.

Saturn Green Vue is not a hybrid. It is a conventional car with gas-saving features. Calling it a hybrid is like calling a simplistic AWD car a 4x4. Maddenly confusing at best and downright wrong (or a lie) at worst.

Someone mentioned something about the Vue does not run on electric at 25-MPH. FYI -- Our Highlander Hybrid can run at 40-MPH on full electric on fairly flat roads. This is a 4000+ lb car running in full-electric. Now that is a full-hybrid.

[S Pauley]

I have an 07 Toyota Highlander. I've had two failures of the starter battery. Toyota replaced the first dead battery. I'm now due for my 5000 mi service. I could jump start both times. I had the cell phone plugged into the cig. lighter, but the red charge light was off. Could there still be an electrical drain from that or is the drain coming from somewhere else?

[NinjaTickets.com --Comparison shop event ticket and save!]

The fact is GM is developing good cars and has established an "every new model must provide MPG improvements over the old model." While your bashing them for not doing enough (despite their new two mode hybrids that can electrically coast on the highways unlike the prius, project driveway, and their volt which is truly an advancement using motor for power and ice as a generator), the automotive magazines are bombing on them for doing too much. Get real, GM is building great cars that can compete or better BMW and Toyota, and they are doing a lot, albeit slowly, for fuel economy.