I tried to choose a Civic Hybrid—But Honda didn’t choose me

I’m a lucky guy.  My wife just got a promotion at work that included a free parking spot.  With our two boys (3 years and 6 months) at two different pre-schools, she thought it best that we finally go to a 2-car family and share the child-transit load.  Being that I do work for the “clean vehicles program of the Union of Concerned Scientists” – I felt that a hybrid would help me put my money where my mouth is. 

My progressive, but practical wife needed a bit of convincing.  She was leaning with the fuel economy given Arlington, VA gas prices were already zipping past $2.00/gallon, but when I happened to mention that Virginia was actively running the Hybrid HOV rule (meaning registered hybrids get to use HOV lanes and roads even with only one occupant), the gasp of exhilaration let me know there was no way we WEREN’T getting a hybrid now (note to all those out there wanting to increase hybrid sales—I know the jury is still out on using HOV lanes this way, but there is a reason why Northern Virginia is #2 to California in hybrid car sales)

So I went to work looking at Hybrid models.  Unfortunately, I didn’t have the hybridcenter.org to help guide me ;-), but What I did manage to find out surprised me.  Yes, the Toyota Prius got better gas mileage, but the Civic Hybrid rated mostly 5 stars in crash tests, while the Prius got mostly 4 stars.  That still makes the Prius a very safe car, but when you have little ones, you look for every edge there.  On smog emissions, the Prius got an excellent “8” rating from the EPA, but one version of the Civic got a “9.”  What confused me was that there was another version of the Civic that got a “2.”

Well, unlike most of the world, I happen to work next door to a vehicle engineer, our own research director David Friedman. So I asked him about this, thinking that what I found had to be a mistake.  But indeed it was not.  “Just because a car is more fuel efficient, that does not guarantee it is cleaner when it comes to smog,” he cautioned me.  “Hybrids are unique because automakers can offer products that have both very low smog-forming emissions and high fuel economy in one package, but automakers have to make that choice…  The Bin 9 Civic Hybrid [the one that got the “2” EPA rating] is still a good car, but it is definitely lacking on smog emissions,” he said. 

Still, I saw a version of the Honda Civic hybrid that was actually a bit safer, and a bit cleaner than the Prius, and with the Prius’ reputation for a 6 month wait (my wife is a wonderful woman, but patient she is not), I felt it was time to go shopping and find me a “Cleaner Civic Hybrid.”

So I emailed around greater Washington, DC area, asking around about Civic Hybrids.  Just about every dealer had at least one in stock, but when I asked for the one that rated a “Tier 2, Bin 2” federal emissions standard (that’s the “9” EPA score), there wasn’t one in sight.  I actually went into one dealer who said she might have one in stock.  When I arrived, she said they didn’t, but she would check with their service folks to see if one of the “Bin 9s” could be retrofit with the cleaner technology, but to no avail.  Problem was that the difference between the cleaner and dirtier Civic Hybrid lay in the fact that the Bin 9 version uses lean-burn engine technology that gets naturally better gas mileage, but sacrifices in emissions.

Also note that it took a while to actually convince some dealers that the version they had in stock was the Bin 9.  So if you’re looking around yourself, be very aware of what you are being sold, even in California.  As a tip, the Bin 9 version of the ’05 Civic Hybrid has a “Underhood Label ID” of 5HNXV01.33A6, while the Bin 2’s label is 5HNXV01.3YCV.  In California emissions terms, the cleaner Civic rates a SULEV II while the other rates a ULEV.

Disappointed but undaunted, I decided to try dealers up in New Jersey, thinking that because they had adopted the stricter California emissions standards, perhaps the cleaner version of the Civic would be available there.  The dealer said that he actually talked to Honda, who told him that they were not making the “California-emissions” version of the Civic Hybrid available outside of California. 

I really think this was a huge mistake by Honda, trying to save a few bucks on the manufacture of the Civic Hybrid available outside California, when they could have made and marketed every single Civic Hybrid around the country as a “safer, cleaner” choice to the Prius.  Indeed, given that many folks looking for hybrids are interested in it from both a safety, and especially an environmental perspective, they really missed an opportunity to carve themselves a great, competitive niche in this market. Hopefully they’ll learn from this lesson for their ‘06 models.

So, Honda blew the sale with me, and, next time, fellow HybridBloggers, I will tell you how I got a new Prius only 3 weeks, not 6 months, after purchase…

Posted by: ScottN

Comments

[Pascal]

Thanks for the information it is very useful.

I went shopping for a new car over the weekend. I am looking to buy a civic. I also took a look at the civic hybrid.

Note all prices below are in Canadian dollars.

Here is my issue with the hybrid
If I buy a standard civic I would buy the CIVIC SE (base model plus 1000$ for air cond, remote key entry and cd player)
Price 17,500$
Fuel Consumption*, City/HWY (L/100km) - A.T. 8.0 / 5.7

The Civic hybrid is about 28,500$ (about 11,000$ more)
Fuel Consumption*, City/HWY (L/100km) - C.V.T. 4.9 / 4.6

The canadian price for gas is about 0.90 cents per liter which is about 3.41 per "americain" gallon
(Note: To convert prices in cents per liter to dollars per U.S. gallon multiply by 0.03786)

Savings if I drive 15 000km per year
If all city (more favoralbe to hybrid)

SE
150 x 8 = 1200 x 0.9 = 1080$

Hybrid
150 x 4.9 = 735 x .90 = 661.5$

Savings per year 418.5$

Saving after 10 years 4185$

After 10 years it still cost me 6815$
And this if without considering insurance and possibly repair being higher for the hybrid.

I will never be able to convince my wife that we should buy a hybrid at this price.

My question is if honda would put a hybrid engine in Civic SE how much more would it cost. Currently the hybrid has extra features then the SE
Ex. Beverage Holders, Front "with Lid"
Power Windows with Driver’s Auto-Down and Illuminated Switch
Trunk Lid Spoiler

Thanks
Pascal

[Markus]

Glad to hear you got a hybrid!
To calm your fears about not getting as safe of a car, I should point out that the Prius that got three 4 star and one 5 star rating did not have side curtain airbags. Assuming that you got one of the many option packages with side airbags, your Prius would probably test with more 5 star ratings.(you can find examples of cars with and without side airbags, and the ones with side airbags generally got one extra star). Also note that the Prius was one of the best cars ever tested in the European crash tests.

[Annerism]

It is nice to hear this issue addressed! While shopping for my new car, the choice came down to the Prius or the Civic Hybrid as well, and I too chose the Prius. There were several reasons, but the biggest one was this same issue with emissions that you describe. I am still confused about why Honda, who keeps being named the greenest auto manufacturer, played games like this with the emissions on their hybrids. They could, and should, have done better.

Thanks,
Annerism

[Kevin]

Ah, Pascal, but it's going to be nearly impossible to justify any purchase based on gasoline saved if you only drive 15k km a year... that's 9320 miles. And isn't the SE a two-door civic? I think the price is a lot closer comparing 4-door to 4-door. If you could live with a 2-seater, then you should really compare an SE to an Insight.

Anyway I redid your numbers with 20k km/year, and $10000CA difference in price (you should be able to negotiate $1500 off the hybrid versus $500 on the SE - if anything), and you're payback is 17 years (versus your calculated 26 year payback).

Assuming you kept the car 8 years, You'd get back around half the extra you paid, and you can assume you'd save money on maintainence & insurance... in my experience the insurance is cheaper on the hybrids because the numbers are based on the average of the group that drives them - and hybrid civic drivers are going to be much safer drivers than the civic SE drivers.

Plus the hybrid batteries are warrentied to 8 years, so you will have $0 extra expense there in maintainence (you mentioned being worried about higher maintainence).

I'd check the savings in insurance - get a quote. You might find yourself closer to breaking even than you thought. With an Insight you could probably pay it back in 4-6 years, especially considering you should be able to get $3000-5000 off the price, since they are barely selling at all.

Good luck!

-Kevin

[Kevin]

NOTE - my note two posts below would make much more sense if it were read _after_ Pascal's post at the bottom of the page (as it was posted) instead of before. :)

Scott,

Nice points, but just to mention a few counterpoints:

I remember when the 2001 CVT Insight came out with very disappointing fuel numbers vs. my 2000 5-speed... Based on the performance of the CVT it should have gotten 5-10% better economy than the 5-speed, if not more - instead of 5-15% worse!! How could this be??

Well the difference, as you noticed, is the lean-burn mode of the 5-speed insight, leading to higher NOx emissions and limiting the vehicle to ULEV performance. The Prius came out with SULEV ratings, and so Honda replied by cutting fuel economy and making the Insight CVT SULEV, and removing the lean-burn mode and the accompanying revolutionary NOx storage & reburning catalyst disclosed in this US Patent (among others): 5,953,907 at www.uspto.gov ... or try this link:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5953907

This is the same technology that is missing in the California Civic.

While it's true the NOx levels of a ULEV vehicle is about twice the levels from an SULEV vehicle, in a historical sense, it's all the same. As soon as I can't go to the store and buy a two stroke lawnmower that pollutes each hour the equivalent of 1000 miles of driving in my ULEV Insight, I'll care.

It appears Honda is moving away from this technology toward cylinder deactivation if the new Accord is any indication, anyway. This technology has failed in the marketplace before, so Honda is counting on improvements through noise cancellation via the stereo speakers, active engine mounts, and torque converter clutching in harmony with power pulses.

So even though Honda might be moving away from lean burn, let me wax nostalgic for a little longer. In my past life as a Mech-E in Ford's engine engineering group, I remember our engine's air-fuel lean limit being lowered from 18.5:1 down to 17.5:1 because of emissions and drivability issues on our 2-valve 4.6l. Now I know Ford had at the time (before I left in '99) 3-valve and 4-valve cylinder head designs with "tumble & swirl" pre-combustion geometries designed to approach 20:1 A-F, but only in the laboratory.

When Honda came out with a _production_ vehicle running 25:1, I figured it was a typo. No one really believed it was even possible to make a driveable engine or meet LEV emissions, much less ULEV emissions. I don't know if the Civic Hybrid Bin 9 runs 25:1, but trust me, I'd be proud to own it.

I would wonder about the "2" rating though. Considering ULEV is twice as good as LEV, and there are still non-LEV vehicles for sale at your local dealership... I guess if the Bin 9 Civic is a "2" then those cars must be a -26??? That "2" rating sounds like politics to me, not science.

Actually, are you sure that there is a Civic Hybrid that is even certified to Tier 2, Bin 9? I don't see one here:

http://www.greenercars.com/byclass.html

or here:

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True

The second link there from Honda makes Civic Hybrids to ULEV & AT-PZEV1, and points out that fuel economy numbers are for the "ULEV model only. AT-PZEV model mileage range will be lower." You mentioned an SULEV II version... I'm not familiar with the AT-Partial Zero emissions, if anyone can clear this up.

But, really, I don't think Honda was "trying to save a few bucks on" on the lower emissions vehicle, they were trying to improve mileage and save gas, which is more of the point of these cars.

But you I hope you love your Prius, regardless. If you want to save emissions or gas over either of these vehicles, you'd have to ride a Segway to work!

-Kevin
kevin at in-or dot com

[Jim Stack]

Honda is very poor compared to Toyota. In the prius even the gas engine runs in a clean copper-atkins cycle lean mode and is 8 times cleaner than any other engine. The prius can go in EV mode and is only sold in the supewr clean version in all states, even ones that don't have the Clean Car mandate.

I have had up to 85 mpg in my 05 prius on a round trip to work and back, about 20 miles each way ! Imagine whaty the Jan 09 new prius will do at 30% more efficient.

I'm also getting the plug-in A123 option for my 05. It will then get 100+ .don't buy a new car, upgrade your prius !